"The Many Moods of Vince Daniels" Radio Show, February 17, 2007 http://Stop-Narconon.org/StoneHawk Segment 2 ANNOUNCER: Now, live from the upper level of the Carousel Mall and the studios of KCAA-AM 1050, downtown San Bernadino, it's a talk show about everything for absolutely everybody. Welcome to "The Many Moods of Vince Daniels." [Music, then Vince introduces Dancing in the Moonlight.] VINCE DANIELS: It's one of those feel-good. God knows we can use some. KIM JOHNSON: I was just going to say it's not bad to feel good. VINCE DANIELS: I like that. Did you come up with that? KIM JOHNSON: I did, just now. I'd better write that one down. [Laughter] VINCE DANIELS: Kim Johnson is going to be coming up with a lot of them. She's actually joining me, actually going to be co-hosting on this show for an indefinite period. KIM JOHNSON: While you look for a co-host. I am actually the co-host of my show on Sundays from 1:00 to 2:00 with my co-host Mike Desalt and we have a show called Overground Railroad, so we are very excited about that. But I am here for you while you look for that I guess kind of Regis-Kelly Ripa kind of, you know. Maybe that's not a good example, I don't know. VINCE DANIELS: No, because I need somebody who will isn't afraid to just rip into some of the people we have on here. KIM JOHNSON: Sassy! Sassy co-host. VINCE DANIELS: Absolutely. Let's get back to it. We are having a most informative hour here with the fiancés and also the mother of a couple of students of the Stone Hawk Narconon Drug Rehabilitation Center in Battle Creek, Michigan. And we just heard from Sheri Koenig who is the fiancée of Daryl who will be getting out of the program at Stone Hawk tomorrow and also Kimberly Darr whose fiancé is David Bowser and David is on the line right now joining us, along with another student. In fact, David, you've been out now for--first of all, David, welcome to the show. KIM JOHNSON: Hello, welcome. DAVE BOWSER: Thanks, Vinnie. VINCE DANIELS: And you got out a week ago? DAVE BOWSER: Yes. VINCE DANIELS: About a week ago and joining you also is Melissa Casey and how long--I think you just, just-- MELISSA CASEY: I just left this morning. VINCE DANIELS: This morning. KIM JOHNSON: Wow. VINCE DANIELS: Fresh from that. We want to hear from-- MELISSA CASEY: Hey, Dave, how are you? DAVE BOWSER: [Laughs] Not bad, Melissa. How are you doing? MELISSA CASEY: I could be better. [Laughter] DAVE BOWSER: Good. VINCE DANIELS: And joining Melissa on the extension phone where you're--you guys, in fact, Melissa, you're in Michigan, right? MELISSA CASEY: Yes. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. Your mother, Lynn, is joining me, too. Welcome, Lynn. Good to have you here. You and I spoke last night. LYNN CASEY: Yes, thank you. VINCE DANIELS: And I want to first, let me talk to you first, Lynn and Melissa, because, I mean, Lynn, you're a mother, you went through all this. I mean, you were livid. LYNN CASEY: Yeah. VINCE DANIELS: [Laughs] And you're coming fresh from a lot of real raw emotions and that's why I want to get you on here. Talk to us. LYNN CASEY: Well, like one of your other guests, you know, you're dealing with people who are very vulnerable and I found looking on the Internet, Melissa was ready to go, ready to go somewhere to get some help, and I wanted to get her out of the environment where she was at, and so Michigan was an option for me. And so in looking for someplace in this area where I could be closer, looking on the Internet for facilities, and it was interesting how everything led me back, toll-free numbers to call, information led me back to Stone Hawk. You know, their Web site, they talk about holistic things, you know, exercise, vitamins, nutrition. VINCE DANIELS: I understand they have like a picture of horses, they have a picture of a nice swimming pool there. LYNN CASEY: Not at this facility they did not. They showed--they're on a lake. This facility sits on a lake in Michigan and they had a fishing dock, they had a sauna that looked really nice and it appears to be a nice environment to send your kid. They claim a 76% rate, success rate. And so, again, you're dealing with people who are desperate. You have a loved one who's ready to go, and so this is what I was able to find. And so we make the arrangements to get there. I'm told several of the same things that your other guests talked about and although the person I dealt with was a different person. And we get up there and I start having some misgivings. My older daughter, Lindsay, talked about, "I think this may be related to Scientology," and I'm going, okay. So on the drive up there I start to think about it and one of the first questions I ask this gentleman who was checking us in was, "Are you affiliated with Scientology?" He said no, no. And he did say that it was founded by a guy who was a heroin addict in jail who read some of L. Ron Hubbard's book but never even finished it but thought this was the way-- VINCE DANIELS: Red flag right there. KIM JOHNSON: Yeah. LYNN CASEY: Again, you know, and you do, you feel taken, you feel horrible, but you are desperate and this is what they're dealing in. And I pay my $27,000. KIM JOHNSON: Wow. [Laughs] LYNN CASEY: I had to put money for a medical account. Was told there was counseling, was told that you can contact them at any time. And he understood because he was a former addict, had been through the program and it was successful for him. Now, he was very helpful to me. I was able to contact him, get in touch with them, check on Melissa. I got the same thing. I could tell she's going to do great. She's going to be great. VINCE DANIELS: I want to hear now from Melissa because you went into this program how long ago? MELISSA CASEY: Six weeks tomorrow. VINCE DANIELS: All right. What prompted you to want to get out? MELISSA CASEY: Well, I was in Sauna, I was in the sauna part of the program, and I thought it was all crazy, you know, but I was just going to do it. I wanted to get better, you know, so I thought my attitude was I'll take what I need and the rest of it I just won't pay attention to. So I get in the Sauna portion. I had been in the sauna for 19 or 20 days and a week ago from today I started feel bad, like just sick. I had a temperature of like 100 for one night. I saw their physician on Monday. He said I just had an upper- respiratory infection and then they thought I had the flu. They flu-tested me; I didn't have it. So I went back to the doctor Tuesday, thought it was upper respiratory, gave me some prescription. Went back to the doctor on Wednesday because I still wasn't better, so the nurse wanted to send me back. My breathing was terrible. Went to the doctor again on Wednesday night-- VINCE DANIELS: Was your breathing bad before you entered the program? MELISSA CASEY: I had had allergy-induced asthma when I was in college but I haven't had any problems with it for at least two years. VINCE DANIELS: Well, tell me about this sauna. What's the temperature in this sauna? MELISSA CASEY: A hundred and eighty degrees. KIM JOHNSON: Wow. VINCE DANIELS: Is that unusual for-- MELISSA CASEY: I don't know. KIM JOHNSON: Yeah, I don't know what the-- MELISSA CASEY: But you stay in there. It's five hours a day. You can get out and take breaks. You don't sit in there straight, but it's five hours a day you're down there. You sit in there and you have to keep getting in because they claim that when they give you niacin it pushes out the bad toxins in your body and they claim that it, you know, brings out old illnesses and then heals them. Like you sweat all of that out. KIM JOHNSON: Right. VINCE DANIELS: How many milligrams of niacin there, Melissa? MELISSA CASEY: They start you out at 100 and work you up to 1,000. I was up to 800 when this happened, and I ended up in the emergency room on Wednesday night after I had seen their physicians every day that week. I had to be taken by ambulance to the emergency room because I was having a severe asthma attack. KIM JOHNSON: Wow. VINCE DANIELS: Oh, my God. And Lynn, you just went there last night. Did you go there with police officers? LYNN CASEY: I actually went this morning and picked her up and I had some idea that I was going to take a police officer if they were going to give me any sort of a hassle or try to talk me into anything. So actually went by myself. They made me wait a few minutes. Melissa actually came down quite quickly but wanted her to sign a medical release where she had asked them could she just take a medical, just get out for medical reasons and then try to come back, and they would not let her do that. But what they wanted to do today was have her sign a medical release and, of course, sign off any rights that they were responsible for her health. VINCE DANIELS: You didn't sign anything, did you? LYNN and MELISSA CASEY: No. [Laughs] VINCE DANIELS: Good, good. Dave Bowser, you also were in this program. You're familiar with drug rehabilitation programs. You and I spoke at length the other day. I mean, you're not new to any of this. You know. DAVE BOWSER: No. VINCE DANIELS: I want you to just lay out the litany of everything. I mean, for example, the niacin intake, how high did they get you up? DAVE BOWSER: I was taking 2,000. VINCE DANIELS: Oh, God! DAVE BOWSER: And I knew the next day that they were going to take me to 2,500. VINCE DANIELS: Oh, my God. KIM JOHNSON: Is that even-- VINCE DANIELS: Legal? KIM JOHNSON: I was going to say what the person before said, 25. VINCE DANIELS: Oh, my God. I heard 800; 2,500. They were going to get him up to 2,500. All right. What do you feel inside? I mean, what goes on in the body? DAVE BOWSER: I notice with most of the people in the sauna for the first few days wasn't bad. Then people started getting sick, started getting really depressed. They were feeling really miserable. For me, after I got to 1,000, I had severe depression. I was vomiting, diarrhea for 72 hours straight. KIM JOHNSON: Wow. DAVE BOWSER: And I went to their girl that was running it and explained to her. I said my depression is so bad it's not normal for me. I'm ready to jump off a bridge. I am so sick it's unbelievable, throwing up, it's been three days straight. She handed me an L. Ron Hubbard book and said, "Read these two pages." I read them and she looks at me and she goes, "Do you feel any better?" And I laughed, I said no, I'm sick. [Laughter] And then I requested a blood test on my paperwork that you turn in at the end of the day. They did nothing, like my fiancée said, for six days to stop my feet [phonetic] and finally got a blood test. They don't watch you when you take the niacin. VINCE DANIELS: What kind of people do they have working there? WOMAN: Ex-addicts. DAVE BOWSER: The only person that was in the--that was a student months ago. They pay him $6.90 an hour. KIM JOHNSON: So no medical background with this monitoring of niacin. It's just kind of off the cuff? DAVE BOWSER: There's no--I know they don't have any state certification. KIM JOHNSON: Wow. DAVE BOWSER: That Narconon might have them go through a couple classes or watch a movie but there's no college degree in that field. KIM JOHNSON: So where's the $27,000 going? It doesn't sound like it's going to the facility or to the help or-- VINCE DANIELS: Or wages for doctors [inaudible] there any doctors. [Laughter] KIM JOHNSON: It must be very profitable. DAVE BOWSER: In the Stone Hawk facility there is one nurse. The nurse really doesn't know anything. I went up to her and said, you know, I'm really sick. Is taking this couple thousand milligrams of niacin, is that okay? My kidneys hurt for three weeks. Two weeks prior to asking for a blood test, it woke me up in the middle of the night. My kidneys have never hurt. The last week it started hurting throughout the day and through the evening. That's how-- KIM JOHNSON: I'm sorry to interrupt. You knew that part of the sauna there might be some discomfort, that there might be some detoxing involved but not to--I mean, this was clearly to a different extreme is what you're saying. DAVE BOWSER: You can tell up there real quick you need to keep your mouth shut and keep your head down or it's going to be a lot more difficult than it already is. VINCE DANIELS: You were telling me that they--you said something interesting the other day, Dave, that they rule by fear. DAVE BOWSER: Absolutely, from management to staff to security guards down to the students. VINCE DANIELS: It trickles itself down. Talk to us about the bull-baiting. DAVE BOWSER: My third day in, I come in, I sit down. The I think they're called instructors, they're not teachers, they will run the course, sit down, will yell in your face, me personally, simple stuff, "You have big ears. Your eyes are beady." [Kim laughs] Down to-- VINCE DANIELS: Are they cussing at you? DAVE BOWSER: Absolutely. "I think you're a homosexual. You have sex in the rear." KIM JOHNSON: Oh! DAVE BOWSER: And it's promoted from these instructors. The other students watch. Now, you also have to bull-bait other students. You can't get through unless you're cutting other students down and other students are cutting you down. Then it goes from--it's there was girls in the class and they were, you know, would say like, "I want to sleep with you," or other terminology like that, and the instructors didn't dis-encourage it at all. It was acceptable; it's part of it. Out in the real world it would definitely be sexual harassment without a doubt. KIM JOHNSON: For sure. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. DAVE BOWSER: There is no workplace I could have ever worked at and got away with five minutes, or anyone else would be even working there with what's going on in the classroom. KIM JOHNSON: I have to say, if anybody was standing in front of me saying those things and then, as I understand it, this ball-baiting where I have to touch my genitals, smell it and not make a--I mean, like are you kidding me? I would-- DAVE BOWSER: That's how. It's your--I mean, that's what the instructors were doing. That's how wide, free range you have. Anything that you can imagine. You can't actually hit somebody else or touch them. You can scream, clap, and it also goes where you try and make somebody laugh, but it's to break them from sitting there and it goes that far off the deep end, that it has no restraint. KIM JOHNSON: No parameters, in other words. VINCE DANIELS: What about the sleeping conditions, Dave? I mean, what are the mattresses, I mean, is this like a cheap motel? DAVE BOWSER: I wouldn't stay at a cheap motel like it. It's a small room like a one-bedroom motel room. There's bunk beds stacked on top of each other. My roommates were rolling up comforters to fill the holes in the middle, where the whole mattress had sagged down like an old impression of a body, to fill it so it was kind of flat. Yes, it was-- VINCE DANIELS: Okay. All of you here, sitting here today, I mean, let me ask a very pointed question. If you were contacted by Stone Hawk today and they wanted--well, if they had called you last night knowing that you were going to be or let's say I invited you back next week for a follow-up and midway through the week or the day before they called you and said, "Let's sit down and talk full settlement and then some." KIMBERLY DARR: Vinnie? VINCE DANIELS: Yes. KIMBERLY DARR: They called 17 minutes before the show. VINCE DANIELS: What? KIM JOHNSON: Interesting. DAVE BOWSER: I spoke with Per Wickstrom called. KIMBERLY DARR: Per Wickstrom called and talked to David. DAVE BOWSER: Yes, 17 minutes before the show. He wanted me not to do the show. Asked me if I'd spoke to my parents, told me that they gave my parents an offer yesterday, and he wanted me to make an offer before the show. And I told him straight out it's not about the money. You have lied to me and you have stole from my parents and you're taking people that when they are in need, at their worst time in their need, their families, and then playing on it. "Weren't you ever scared? Didn't you ever stay up late at night worrying about your children? If they don't come here they're going back out. It's going to happen again." KIM JOHNSON: Right. DAVE BOWSER: "Or when they get there, don't let them leave. If they leave they're going--all that's going to happen over again," because they know that they've got you. But yes, I just had spoke with him before we talked and told him that that's over. What's done and happened is up there. It's not about the money. KIM JOHNSON: And now you want a voice. You want to express-- VINCE DANIELS: Even if they gave you 30, 40,000, even more than you spent, you wouldn't take it? DAVE BOWSER: No. KIM JOHNSON: It's principle right now. DAVE BOWSER: I've spoken with my family and in good conscience we can't let this go on. It's not acceptable. MELISSA CASEY: I would not accept money from them. There are people there that I became very close to and care about a lot that are still stuck in that environment. DAVE BOWSER: Good for you, Melissa. MELISSA CASEY: And they're going to be there until somebody does something about it. I mean, they put me at serious risk. KIMBERLY DARR: The only thing is then, we don't know what step to take next. VINCE DANIELS: Is this Sheri or is this Kimberly talking? KIMBERLY DARR: This is Kim. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. KIMBERLY DARR: Kimberly, sorry. [Laughs] There's a group of us. We don't know what step to take next. In fact, Per was telling David, "You don't know anything about civil lawsuits. You don't know what you're talking about." VINCE DANIELS: Is this what he said to you before today, before going on the air? KIMBERLY DARR: That's what he said today. DAVE BOWSER: We talked for about 20 minutes right before your radio show started, Vince. KIM JOHNSON: Wow. VINCE DANIELS: They must be running scared over there. DAVE BOWSER: I mean, fourth phone call in the last 24 hours. KIM JOHNSON: Wow. It sounds to me like, you know, some truth is coming out and another fear. It's fear, a fear tactic. DAVE BOWSER: Yes. There would be no reason to call if we were lying. They knew that they'd be justified and not even worried about it. VINCE DANIELS: Oh, my God, they are practically--and I'm not saying that they're doing it--but just with this niacin thing. And I understand they don't even really encourage you to take Tylenol over there. Is that true? DAVE BOWSER: No. They--the doctor wrote me a prescription for Tylenol for my kidneys. A couple days later I asked if I could have one. They said yes but you'll be pulled out of Sauna for three days. You're not--and it all works on punishment. Other people are on Claritin and Benadryl and they're forcing them to go in at a 102 temperature. MELISSA CASEY: That's what they do in-- DAVE BOWSER: And I was like, you know, yeah. KIM JOHNSON: Wow. VINCE DANIELS: I'll be interested to hear what Kate Wickstrom has to say when she comes on here in another few minutes. KIM JOHNSON: It should be very interesting. VINCE DANIELS: And I'm going to let her have her say, but I'm going to tell you something right now. As far as I'm concerned and as long as I have a microphone in front of me, I am not going to turn it off and I'm not going to shut up about this until this place gets their business license pulled. KIMBERLY DARR: Well, Vinnie, the next step for us is newspapers and TV channels up in the Battle Creek, Michigan and Ohio area. KIM JOHNSON: Express your voice. KIMBERLY DARR: Yeah. DAVE BOWSER: Absolutely. KIM JOHNSON: I think that you have the right to express yourself, and if there's something going on that's a fear tactic and trying to take your voice away, I just don't agree with that. I'm not okay with that. VINCE DANIELS: And these people can claim freedom of speech and freedom of religion if they want, if they want to hide behind that. I mean, this is clearly--I mean, this is a consumer issue, for God's sake, with the unsanitary conditions [inaudible] and a medical issue with the fact that they are sitting here pumping these people with up to 2,500 milligrams of niacin. My God, you've got to have a proper--everybody knows you've got to have a proper B-vitamin complex along with that as well. KIM JOHNSON: For $27,000, you'd think that there would be more an investment in their reputation. It sounds to me like there's some shortcuts and there's not really too much caring going on and, you know, discipline when necessary. Self-discipline is not a bad thing but this sounds to me like this is not about that. This is about sheer fear tactics. VINCE DANIELS: Exactly. Go ahead, Dave. DAVE BOWSER: Well, as far as the niacin goes, you have to sign a death waiver saying that if you die in the sauna that you cannot sue them. I told them that I-- VINCE DANIELS: If you die; I like that. How can you sit if you're dead? [Laughter] Boy, they thought of everything. [Laughter] DAVE BOWSER: The gentleman that I was in there with, they actually gave him 20 minutes and said, "If you don't sign this in 20 minutes you're out the front door on the street, no ifs, ands or buts." Had walked up, talked to Kate and Kate had sent the message back down, said there's no ifs, ands or buts. It's ridiculous. VINCE DANIELS: Well, we're not going to let this story drop. I want to get you guys back on here again as often as we can. I appreciate you all, every one of you. DAVE BOWSER: I appreciate you listening to our voices. MELISSA CASEY: Yeah, thank you. KIMBERLY DARR: And if you have any suggestions or if any of your listeners are civil attorneys and want to point us in the right direction, I'd like to get that-- VINCE DANIELS: As a host, unfortunately, I can't really get involved other than just having you here on the show, but yeah, certainly. I mean, there must be attorneys out there listening to the sound of our voice that handle these kinds of religious issues perhaps or they can do this more on a consumer. KIM JOHNSON: Absolutely, absolutely. I'm sure that there--there is a place for your voice. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. WOMAN: I really appreciate it. VINCE DANIELS: Thank you all, every one of you, Sheri Koenig, Kimberly Darr, of course Dave Bowser and the Caseys, I want to thank both Melissa and Lynn for being on. KIM JOHNSON: And good luck with everything. WOMAN: Thank you. KIM JOHNSON: And your future recovery. VINCE DANIELS: And thank you for taking a stand with all of us here today on the show, too, and thank you for standing up to Per Wickstrom this morning. DAVE BOWSER: Absolutely. I'll be in touch, Vince. Thank you. VINCE DANIELS: Okay, thank you, Dave. KIM JOHNSON: Bye, guys. VINCE DANIELS: And we're going to come back and we're going to talk to Kate Wickstrom who actually runs the Stone Hawk Narconon Center. She's got a statement she wants to make and Kim and I will be more than happy to let her speak when we come back on the other side, 29 after the hour. You're listening to Vince Daniels. [End of Segment 2.]