"The Many Moods of Vince Daniels" Radio Show, February 17, 2007 http://Stop-Narconon.org/StoneHawk Segment 3 VINCE DANIELS: Anyway, we have got on the line with us here Kate Wickstrom. We have been talking, of course, over this past hour with a couple of, you know, with loved ones and also students who have attended Stone Hawk Drug Rehabilitation Center. It's a Narconon facility in Battle Creek, Michigan. I promised that we would give a few minutes here to Kate Wickstrom. Kate, you are, what, are you the executive director? KATE WICKSTROM: That is correct. VINCE DANIELS: Now, were you listening in the last hour or so? KATE WICKSTROM: No, I haven't had the opportunity to really listen to it but I have received calls from people that have made me aware that it seems like the people calling in are being negative but the people that are calling to voice positive opinions are being told that the slots are full? That seems a little biased. KIM JOHNSON: Well, people that were talking earlier, unfortunately, I wish that you would have been listening to the show. I don't know that it's so much that they were being negative. They were expressing concern for truly health issues, sanitary issues, lack of medical staff, lack of were they being paid attention to for illnesses that-- VINCE DANIELS: Is that true you have rodents running around the place? KATE WICKSTROM: No, that is not true. VINCE DANIELS: I've heard a story, Kate, where at one time there was a chandelier or I mean a light fixture rather that fell on somebody about a year ago. KATE WICKSTROM: That's not true! VINCE DANIELS: And they were rushed to the hospital and they were told by somebody there at your facility that, you know, "We'll take care of this. Just don't tell your parents." KATE WICKSTROM: No, that is absolutely not true. You know, you say they're stories and that's exactly what they are. VINCE DANIELS: These people-- KATE WICKSTROM: We are licensed by the State of Michigan. We abide by all health and safety codes. KIM JOHNSON: And, you know, as I understand it, you have one nurse in the facility and a doctor that's not there, he's offsite? KATE WICKSTROM: Oh, that's not true. We have two physicians, okay, that come into the facility twice a week to see students. KIM JOHNSON: Twice a week. KATE WICKSTROM: They have to sign up to see the doctors. Okay, they're on call 24/7. KIM JOHNSON: And for $27,000 there's not somebody permanently on staff? I'm just curious about that. KATE WICKSTROM: Pardon me? KIM JOHNSON: Well, as we understand it, $27,000 was the average price and for a 30-day stay and there is not a-- PER WICKSTROM: Now, ma'am, excuse me. This is Per Wickstrom. That's for a up to six-month stay. It works out to $155 a day. VINCE DANIELS: This is Per Wickstrom? PER WICKSTROM: This is Per Wickstrom. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. Let me-- KIM JOHNSON: So there's still not a doctor that's 24/7 on the facility? PER WICKSTROM: Let's get back to the nursing question. KIM JOHNSON: Okay. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah, I'd like to talk about the nursing question because I understand they're prescribing 22,000 milligrams of niacin to people. That could kill somebody. KATE WICKSTROM: Thousand? VINCE DANIELS: Two thousand. KIM JOHNSON: Two thousand. VINCE DANIELS: Yes. Dave Bowser, who was just on this program, talked to us about that. KATE WICKSTROM: The nurses don't prescribe anything, okay? What-- VINCE DANIELS: How did 2,000 milligrams get into his body? KATE WICKSTROM: Okay. What I'd like to do, what is your name, Vince? VINCE DANIELS: Yes. KATE WICKSTROM: Okay, is one, you know, I've worked in the rehab field for almost 25 years in different programs, inpatient and outpatient. I wasn't aware up until about five years ago that there was even an alternative to the traditional 12-Step program. And having worked in those programs, I will-- KIM JOHNSON: What brought you to that? What was the change? What happened five years ago? Was it material that came into your life? KATE WICKSTROM: Okay, I'm trying to-- KIM JOHNSON: Was it reading material, was it Scientology, was it-- KATE WICKSTROM: Ma'am, I'm trying to tell you that. VINCE DANIELS: Go ahead, let her talk. Go ahead, Kate. KATE WICKSTROM: Alrighty. It wasn't until about five years ago that did I even know there was an alternative to the traditional program, okay? And I will never knock the 12-Step programs because they have helped millions of people. Some people just need a different way of looking at addiction. VINCE DANIELS: To be ruled by fear? KIM JOHNSON: What I want to get it as what was that that happened five years ago that that came into your life that showed you the change? Was it information? What is the alternative? KATE WICKSTROM: Five years ago, all right, Per went into the program. He went to the Narconon in Oklahoma. I went out to visit him and saw how the program was run. KIM JOHNSON: And how was the program-- KATE WICKSTROM: It made a lot of sense to me. KIM JOHNSON: What is it that made sense? I'm trying to get to the core of what changed your mind. What was the foundation that planted that seed? Was it reading information, was it a more disciplined approach? VINCE DANIELS: That's a fair question. KATE WICKSTROM: It was a very simple approach, okay? It was teaching people they have control, that they're not powerful, teaching them that addiction is a learned behavior, not a disease or a mental illness. Teaching people that they can confront what has happened in their past that has caused their addiction, get them to handle it and move forward in life and out of the past. KIM JOHNSON: And is that from Scientology? KATE WICKSTROM: Into the present time. VINCE DANIELS: Okay. Well, what about-- KATE WICKSTROM: That I saw in the program, all right, and it made a lot of sense to me. KIM JOHNSON: Okay. KATE WICKSTROM: I learned more about it, decided that-- KIM JOHNSON: Who did you learn more about it through? KATE WICKSTROM: I learned through reading. I learned-- KIM JOHNSON: Reading what material? KATE WICKSTROM: Learned, you know, let me tell you what I learned, is I learned-- KIM JOHNSON: I just want to know what material you were reading. VINCE DANIELS: Let her answer. Let her answer. KATE WICKSTROM: I learned from watching Per, okay, overcome his addiction. He had been in many programs prior to. I learned from watching him get through his addiction and then he has been clean and sober since 2000. That's-- KIM JOHNSON: That's good. Congratulations for that, you know. VINCE DANIELS: I want to know what's going on with all the money. With all this money that people spend, how come you don't have more sanitary conditions over there? KIM JOHNSON: And would you be willing to take pictures and show us wrong? I'd be interested to see. VINCE DANIELS: Yeah. I'm hearing from too many people that there's just-- there's mildew all over the place. You would think for what people are spending that they could, I mean, you would have sanitary conditions. Kate? [Per and Kate talk softly in background briefly.] Did we lose Kate? KIM JOHNSON: Did we lose them? VINCE DANIELS: Yeah, I think we lost them. KIM JOHNSON: Interesting. VINCE DANIELS: That's--yeah. KATE WICKSTROM: You didn't lose me, okay? KIM JOHNSON: Oh, okay. VINCE DANIELS: Are you thinking about the question? KATE WICKSTROM: We are licensed--listen to me. We are licensed by the state. We go through regular and frequent inspections by the health department, by the state, by building inspectors, elevator inspectors, anyone who comes in that has to do their inspections, all right? We've not had any complaints, all right? We've not been shut down due to any kind of-- VINCE DANIELS: But we heard how you can get around all those inspections, too, if you know the right people. KATE WICKSTROM: No. VINCE DANIELS: But it seems to me like too many people-- KATE WICKSTROM: It has nothing to do with that. Vince, why are you trying to make this something horrible when it's not? VINCE DANIELS: I've heard from too many people-- KATE WICKSTROM: It's not what you've heard. VINCE DANIELS: But I've heard from too many people to the contrary. KIM JOHNSON: So they're all lying. Every single one of them is lying. They have some sort of, what, they're vengeful, they're crazy? They're-- [Crosstalk] VINCE DANIELS: Come on, Kate. Let's have some transparency here. If you could be forthcoming with the people out there, we could talk about how to improve this situation. KATE WICKSTROM: Excuse me, excuse me, okay. When I talked to you earlier you said that I was allowed to make a statement, okay? VINCE DANIELS: I did. Go ahead. KATE WICKSTROM: And I'd like to be able to do that, all right? Our purpose is to save lives, all right? Narconon Stone Hack, or I'm sorry, Narconon Stone Hawk has helped over 700 people graduate from this program, all right? These people are leading drug-free lives right now. Narconon has been in business for over 40 years and has saved thousands of lives. We're licensed by the state. We go through all of our inspections. These inspectors can show up at any time. We have nothing to hide. Drug addiction is a very hard thing to overcome. KIM JOHNSON: I agree. KATE WICKSTROM: It takes a great deal of personal commitment and hard work, both by the individual coming into the program and the staff that are here to help them. A key component to any program for recovery is making a commitment to see it through and understanding what the standards of conduct expected are and what can be expected from the program. Individuals coming into the program get thoroughly briefed on the conditions of delivery of the program and standards of conduct to which agreements are signed. If these agree-if there are disagreements, our policy is to maintain communication. We talk to people. We talk to their families. The same applies to any of the finances. We understand that family paying for rehabilitation of a loved one is making a serious commitment. It's a commitment on both sides--the commitment to deliver and the commitment of the individual to stay in the program and get the benefits from it. This is why we're making every effort to get a firm resolution from every enrolling individual and family that he or she will stay the course. VINCE DANIELS: What do you claim your success rate to be. KATE WICKSTROM: It's usually very successful. VINCE DANIELS: Okay, what's your success rate percentage? KATE WICKSTROM: However-- VINCE DANIELS: What is your-- KATE WICKSTROM: If despite the fact that the individual agreed to stay, he then mid-program decides to leave, he has to accept responsibility for the agreements that he made, both the family and the Narconon program need to see the individual gets through the program. VINCE DANIELS: Is that what you're saying to the young lady who had to just recently terminate a pregnancy, that it was her decision? Don't you think that--she came, she made a valid complaint to a nurse and she was not listened to. KATE WICKSTROM: You're interrupting me and you said that I could make a statement. VINCE DANIELS: It's my program. KATE WICKSTROM: Well, you said that I could make my statement. VINCE DANIELS: Well, you made a very long statement and I've listened to it and I'm trying to determine your success rate. KATE WICKSTROM: [While Vince talks.] Well, you have to wait till I finish it. VINCE DANIELS: I mean, is this true that you called Dave Bowser 17 minutes before the show and offered to settle with him? KATE WICKSTROM: I cannot discuss any individuals because of HIPAA regulations. KIM JOHNSON: Can you discuss the phone call to David as far as asking him not to come on air and talk? KATE WICKSTROM: I cannot discuss any individual that has been through our program for any reason because of HIPAA violations. KIM JOHNSON: Can you discuss the phone call that was made to them about not coming on the show? KATE WICKSTROM: Pardon me? KIM JOHNSON: Can you talk about the phone call that was made to them? KATE WICKSTROM: I can't even acknowledge an individual, okay? I can't answer your question. I cannot acknowledge it. VINCE DANIELS: That's an interesting--they can't acknowledge. [Yells] That's the problem with your program, Kate! You're not acknowledging individuals there! KATE WICKSTROM: We have HIPAA regulations that we have to follow. They are state and federal laws. VINCE DANIELS: Oh. Do you follow the FDA guidelines for niacin intake? I think 25, I think 2,000 milligrams is a bit excessive, don't you? KATE WICKSTROM: [Inaudible] you're trying to get away from what we're--the facts that we're telling you, okay? KIM JOHNSON: I think you're trying to get away from them. [Laughs] You're basically saying that all the callers are liars? KATE WICKSTROM: [While Kim talks.] I think so. You know, we're doing a wonderful thing here. [Kim stops talking.] We're doing a wonderful thing here. VINCE DANIELS: Oh! KATE WICKSTROM: You know, we're trying to help people get off drugs and we're being very successful at it. VINCE DANIELS: Not according to the last hour of stories we've heard on this show. KATE WICKSTROM: Well, I'm sorry that these people have, you know, have a difference of opinion, you know, but we are doing a wonderful thing and we're going to continue to do a wonderful thing, and I thank you for letting me have the time to voice my opinion. VINCE DANIELS: Oh, sure. You know, we had to hit you with some questions there, Kate. You know, the people out there after listening to the last hour are going to have the same questions. But, no, I did want to give you some time and you've been gracious for coming on. Thank you and to Per Wickstrom, your husband, thanks for coming on as well. Thank you very much for your time. KIM JOHNSON: Thank you. VINCE DANIELS: All right, we're going to come back and talk to Patty Pieniadz who ran a Narconon center for many years. She was on the Dirty Tricks Committee. Did you know that? KIM JOHNSON: I did not know that. VINCE DANIELS: She's going to tell us all about it when we come back. Fourteen to the hour here. You're listening to the Vince Daniels Show. [End of Segment 3.]